GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

Warning: there are news media that go out of their way to instigate a conflict where otherwise, nothing happened at all. Such sources should be taken with a 'grain of salt.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7078745
Understand that "I don't have a dog in that fight." However, quotes like this reflects badly on GM decision making. Engineers have strong opinions too but the wise engineer keeps such opinions away from reporters. The best engineers 'shoot it out in the market place.' The ultimate test is on the road.

Bob Wilson

Re: GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

People are who they are and their styles fit their personas. Rick Wagoner handles the media in one fashion, Carlos Ghosn in a much different fashion, and Bob Lutz has his own style. All three are still excellent decision makers.

Now, to the point that no conflict exists, don't be lulled to sleep on that one. The Volt is a high risk play, due to it's reliance on Li-Ion battery technology. Toyota and Honda have both slowed down on implementation of Li-Ion as a plug-in energy storage battery, but it is that exact technology that is the heart and soul of the Volt.

Both are to some degree stating publicly that the Volt is purely a publicity play. That's bad form. They know that it is much more than a publicity play. If it's a publicity play, it's one of the most expensive and resource intense publicity plays in automotive history. GM has a ton of people working the project, and if Toyota and Honda aare not already aware of that, they should fire their competitive intelligence staffs.

So why are they become so vocal? Possibly because they may recognize that this thing is likely to happen before they get plug-in parallel hybrids to market (the Volt is officially designated an extended range electric vehicle, but some could characterize it as a series hybrid). By disparaging the basics of the technology, Toyota in particular is looking to deflate consumer expectations.

Peace,

Martin

In the vein of full disclosure, I, unlike Bob, do have a dog in this fight!!

Re: GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

Whatever. The cars I want to buy are here. Now. It's a place called Toyota. It will NEVER EVER be a place calle GM...for me. YMMV.

Sheesh. I'm SOO tired of GMs fake ads it's sad. If they ever get a decent efficient reliable car in the showroom, I will be next door enjoying a thoroughly better vehicle from Toyota. and the numbers tell me I won't be alone.

Re: GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

For the record, I think the Volt is an excellent engineering approach regardless of battery chemistry. From what I can tell from my Prius energy studies is all we really need is enough battery energy to reach the maximum speed and an ICE sized to handle the average, sustained load. The tricky battery part is it has to have a rapid charge and discharge capability, not so much total energy as much as the ability to dump and load at least 75kW. That is achieved by large but thin battery areas. From what I can tell from the press release "specs," the GM Volt will work out very nicely no matter what battery system is used.

Actually, I'm kinda hoping that GM will come out with a Volt-II having a turbo-diesel . . . like the original GM concept car. That would be one sweet ride.

Bob Wilson

ps. So Martin, when are you getting a two-mode vehicle? <grins>

Re: GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

Bob,

You're right about the battery chemistry thing. The industry has already proven that NiMH can do hybrids well and can also do plug-ins. But to your point, it comes down to how much energy can be stored to achieve maximum EV range. You can do it with a heavy load of NiMH batteries (extra mass, compromised physical storage / passenger compartment) or you can focus on using lighter, thinner, more energy dense batteries, in this case Li-Ion.

The issue that has to be managed with Li-Ion is dealing with the heat generated from the chemical reaction. That's what has Toyota backing off for now.

Peace,

Martin

Re: GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

Bob,

You just pinched a sore spot. In this next ordering cycle we've been "asked" to leave the 2-Mode capacity available for retail customers, so it'll be a while. :cry:

So I'll take one for the team and order a CTS. :shade:

Peace,

Martin

Re: GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

I've been following the developments in Electronic Design News and Design News and that is a hard problem to solve. There have been a lot of announcements but the plastic separator and quality production remains a hard problem. Still, I wish the GM team good luck regardless of which technologies are used.

Bob Wilson

Re: GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

you will never see the volt in a show room the way it has been presented in ads and at car shows.

GM is notorious for publicizing cars it has no intention of making. Pushing them as future options to keep people interested in the brand, then distract them with the next show car while they pull the plug on the previous one.

Remember the EV1? I drove that car and loved it. But what happened to it? GM buried it. Or more precisely, crushed it.

even if they end up making 5k or 10k of these cars that does not mean they have produced what they have hyped. They will just pull the old lease trick out, claim there is no viable market for PHEVs or whatever they dont want to invest in and kill the project to keep from having to actually move forward with the company.

Re: GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

And what is your theory on the second shooter on the Grassy Knoll?

Everyone loves a conspriracy theory, with the evil motives of 'the man' keeping us opressed citizens enslaved to one thing or another. But the simple fact of the matter is we live in a free market economy, and businesses make decisions based on profit and market demand - end of story. If there is a profit in the Volt, then GM will proceed. If not, they will cancel it. Just like the EV1. GM is a for profit company, and is accountable to its share holders. You may feel that they should continue to throw good money at a problem for its altruistic benefit, but as a share holder, I expect them to cut their losses where appropriate and turn a profit. (and BTW - they have MANY forward looking industry experts providing input on the long term impact)

Is this profit based motivation wrong? Maybe, but it is what the American economy (still the greatest in the world) is based on. If you want an economy based on artificially set wages, production quotas and R&D requirements, move to France. It works so well over there!

Re: GM sees 'showdown' with Toyota on electric car
 

Didya ever think our 'economy' is fraught with 'foreign' controls? Like $$$. Like oil. time to look around, there's a whole world out there WE depend on to fulfill our over-consumptive lives. It's sad too few in the US care or even give it a thought...just keep driving to Walmart in a Hummer.

GM is so far behind the game of what the "market" wants, it makes me laugh. Their 'prototypes' exist as real-car sales over at Toyota.