Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Oh, gosh. I never meant to imply that I thought GM should put a monster size 6.0L V8 into the SRX.

I just meant that a vehicle that already does rather well with just a 3.6L V6, would do equally well with an appropriately sized hybrid system.

IMHO, basing a hybrid off of a whopping 6.0L V8, isn't exactly meeting my definition of environmentally friendly.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Driving a car with an internal combustion engine isn't environmentally friendly.

I agree that most owners of Escalades have no reason to have such a large vehicle. But the only sensible way to stop the excess environmental destruction is to boost the price of the thing that causes the damage: gasoline. In the meantime, a hybrid Escalade reduces the damage done.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

While I agree in principal with this statement I disagree with the assertion.

It's not gasoline that causes the damage it's the emissions from vehicle. If you can design a vehicle that runs on gas, but greatly reduces emmissions then you can have a tremendous impact on the environment.

That is exactly why I am a proponent of Hybrid technology in all vehicles (big, small, slow or fast). The Lexus Hybrid models are great examples of vehicles that don't necessarily give you maximum mpg, but they do GREATLY reduce the emissions from the vehicle, which has a huge impact on the environment.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

What is there that is specific to hybrid technology that causes a great reduction in emissions other than the reduced fuel consumption? Let's keep this on a per gallon of fuel consumed basis. Doesn't a gallon of gas burned in a hybrid produce pretty much the same amount of CO2 as gas burned in a comparable non-hybrid? What about the hydrocarbons, CO, and NOx? I would think they would be the same, but I do not know for sure.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I follow that thought. Thing is, if you already have a 6.0L system developed and you want to launch a Cadillac application, you put it in the vehicle that CAN accept a 6.0L, if it makes sense to go to market with that product. Vehicles based on other engine designs / displacements have to wait until the development resourses are available to engineer new applications.

The whole point of it, though, is that it spends a lot of time operating as a 3.0L 4-cylinder. The Active Fuel Management (AFM) system shuts off 4 cylinders when they are not needed. The trick is to size the engine such that the available reserve torque in 4-cylinder mode is sufficient to move the vehicle appropriately. If it were a 5.0L V8, it might not spend as much time operating as a 2.5L 4-cyl. At 3.0L the engine is strong enough to manage on 4 cylinders for a greater portion of its normal operating range. Using the same rationale, the 303 hp 5.3L AFM V8 powered Chevrolet Impala SS gets better highway fuel economy (28 mpg) than the 233 hp 3.9L AFM V6 Impala LTZ (27 mpg). The SS spends more time running on a 2.65L 4-cylinder than the LTZ spends running on a 2.0L 3-cylinder.

Peace,

Martin

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

This is a bad assumption.

The amount of emmissions that your car puts out is not just related to the consumption of fuel. How cleanly and effeciently the combustion process is has a big effect on the emmission levels. Alot of what comes out of your tailpipe is becaue the fuel did not completely burn during the combustion process. This is why there are a few SULEV NON-hybrid vehicles. The engines have been designed to reduce emmissions by burning off more of the fuel during combustion.

This is also why newer vehicles in general are producing less emmission compared to 10 years ago. Today's Camry puts out less emmissions than 10 years ago and MPG is roughly the same.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter1.htm

The main emissions of a car engine are:

• Nitrogen gas (N2) - Air is 78-percent nitrogen gas, and most of this passes right through the car engine.<
• Carbon dioxide (CO2) - This is one product of combustion. The carbon in the fuel bonds with the oxygen in the air.<
• Water vapor (H2O) - This is another product of combustion. The hydrogen in the fuel bonds with the oxygen in the air.<

These emissions are mostly benign (although carbon dioxide emissions are believed to contribute to global warming). But because the combustion process is never perfect, some smaller amounts of more harmful emissions are also produced in car engines:

• Carbon monoxide (CO) - a poisonous gas that is colorless and odorless<
• Hydrocarbons or volatile organic compounds (VOCs) - produced mostly from unburned fuel that evaporates Sunlight breaks these down to form oxidants, which react with oxides of nitrogen to cause ground level ozone (O3), a major component of smog.<
• Nitrogen oxides (NO and NO2, together called NOx) - contributes to smog and acid rain, and also causes irritation to human mucus membranes"

Here is another good link
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question407.htm

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I think I was misunderstood. Let me rephrase my question.


How will the emissions of a 2007 Camry (non-hybrid) burning one gallon of gasoline compare to the emissions of a 2007 Camry Hybrid burning one gallon of gasoline? I was just asking what is was that was specific to hybrids that reduced emissions. Is there a difference?


Thanks.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I read an excellent explanation, but can't remember where. If I figure it out I'll post the link. In the meanwhile I'll answer as best as I can remember. This is very simplified, and probably has a lot of holes in it. Hopefully, I'll find the article

Most engines run on what is called an Otto cycle in which the all four cycles are the same length. When operating at low power the input is restricted, not operating at peak efficiency and some of the combustion products are not fully burned. The Toyota Camry hybrid uses a Miller-Atkinson cycle engine. An Atkinson cycle engine is an engine in which the four cycles have two different compression ratios. It's a lot more efficient than an Otto cycle engine, but doesn't have the same torque. This doesn't make it well suited for a regular car, but with the aid of electric motors it's ideal for hybrids.

The Miller-Atkinson engine achieves the goal of uneven compression ratio by allowing the input valves to stay open at the beginning of the compression cycle to expel some air and gas during low power operation, to be used later. Being able to vary how long the valves stay open allows an ideal air-fuel mixture each cycle to be fully combusted, thereby giving lower emissions.

I'm sorry. I'm sure someone is going to read this and laugh, but that's the best I can do from memory. I think I originally found it through Wikipedia, but couldn't find it just now.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

In addition to the above explanation, the HV battery in the hybrid can be used to heat up the catalytic converter much quicker than in a conventional vehicle. Catalytic converters work better when they are warm. The sooner it gets to temp the less pollution you emit in that time frame.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

i'd never heard that the propulsion battery in any hybrids is used to preheat or accelerate the heating of the catalytic converter. really?! nice idea, one way or the other.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

No we won't laugh. Yours is actually a quite accurate explanation. Let me see if I can fill the very small holes in your explanation;
Basic thermodynamic law tells you that the longer an expansion stroke is, the more power that can be extracted from a heat engine. To achieve this in the Otto cycle, leads to very high compression ratios. The reason being that on the Otto cycle, both the compression and expansion strokes are identical in length. Now, high compression is not necessarily a bad thing, and as a matter of fact is the method of choice for many years to achieve higher output. However, high compression requires high octane gas.

To work around this issue, a true Atkinson engine has uneven (assymetrical) length compression and expansion strokes. This is shown, as you correctly remember in Wikipedia. But this is a mechanically complex engine. To work around this, Toyota engineers Atkinsonized the Otto engine, by keeping the intake valves open during the first moments of the compression stroke, thus effectively creating a shorter length compression stroke, while keeping the simplicity of the Otto.

I'm sure that someone else may further add to my explanation.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Thanks for your answers. I also found some information here.
http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/smcar-06.htm
The cars are rated by an air pollution index (NOx, CO, particulates, hydrocarbons, etc.) and greenhouse gas score (CO2-it varies with fuel economy). Anyway, I have found that there are Civics with the same air pollution index as Civic Hybrids. BTW, the air pollution index is per miles driven. I have also found that Escapes have a worse air pollution index than their hybrid counterpart. The New Beetle has a very high (good) air pollution index (same as the Civic Hybrid). Since the New Beetle is burning more fuel to achieve the same miles, I guess this means the New Beetle burns fuel more cleanly.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

This is where I got that information. Half way down

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter3.htm



I also could have sworn that a family member of mine who actually trains Toyota mechanics on Hybrids explained this to me as well. But I could be wrong.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Here is an interesting article about GM and its putting "hybrid" technology into its large trucks/SUVs.

What's in a Name?

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

To my way of thinking a vehicle can only be labeled as a "Hybrid" if it offers an alternative power solution for propulsion. In otherwords the vehicle is propelled not only by the gas engine but also by some alternative power source. If I understand the GM solution it does not provide an alterative source for propulsion?

If that is true I would not label their vehicles as "Hybrids" and I agree with the author of the article that it is deceiving marketing practices. But, that falls right in line with my expectation of GM.

That aside, anything that auto manufacturers can do to increase the overall mpg of there vehicles is a plus, even in a truck.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Got to agree - if it's not hybrid propelled - it's not a real hybrid.

GM needs to focus on the Saturn VUE SUV...I hope it's a success, although Pravus was not real excited when he test drove it at HybridFest.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I do! :shade:

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Cool. If people buy it, then 2-mode has a chance at succeeding!

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Ya'll Prius fans can stop complaining right now, thank god for cadillac for giving us this hybrid escalade.

Hopefully it could outsell the toyota prius.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

From my understanding, the simple hybrid system does propel the car (from stop to like 2mph or so ;) But still. Under the definition that counts as propulsion and does do *something* to help its fe.

Now one could say thats not very much. But the prius cant go over 40 on ev. So if you say it can't drive only on propulsion when then technicaly neither can a prius.

I don't think there is any chance of it ever outselling the prius for two reasons 1) the prius has a longer track record with proven technology. 2) gaining 20% on a low mileage car will likely never come close to paying for itself.

I don't think there will be anyone buying it to help the environment so I don't see a lot of demand for it.

Time will tell though. At least there is the option of buying one. And who knows where this line of thinking with hybrid technology will go.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

first, i'd like to hear from a toyota manual or technician that the big battery in my prius is used to preheat the catalytic converter.

until then, i'm skeptical of the assertion that it does. open to education, though.

second, i've got some technical problems with the "how things work" pages that also lowers their credibility in my mind.

example: diesel-electric locomotives ( mentioned at http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car.htm as "Most of the locomotives we see pulling trains are diesel-electric hybrids. " is, i believe, very misleading if taken literally.

it is my understanding that the diesel engines are connected to generators and that the generators are connected to the electric motors that drive the wheels. i have never heard anywhere that there are any battery-banks in the engines or associated cars that in any way have to do with actually propelling the locomotives or their loads, unlike my prius, for example, which is undeniably a hybrid and can be moved by the ICE OR the battery or a combination of both. the "diesel locomotives are hybrids" seems to me to be flying a bit high and loose with the definitions.

anyone out there drive a diesel loco?

help?

from the quote about the hybrid's battery heating the cat converter, it implies to me that "it could," not that it actually is used that way in any of the currently-sold commercial hybrids.

help?

thanks!

and hi, LB...
XOXOXO

:angel:

(added edit:) ) i also am having a lot of trouble with the use of the concept "hybrid" at http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car.htm in general. i think they're being sloppy.

can i define a hybrid as "a vehicle that can be propelled by either or several of two or more on-board energy sources"? thus our hybrid cars CAN be moved by either battery or ICE or combination, ok?

if you turn off the diesel in a railroad locomotive, it will, i believe, coast to a stop. there is no battery propulsion in the engineering of it.

similarly, diesel-electric trucks like the huge earth-movers, etc., have no energy storage if the diesel quits, so ditto on "grinds to a halt."

and finally, while diesel-electric submarines of WWII vintage could run on their diesels OR electric battery power, is that still true of today's nuke versions? or do they use the nuclear reactors to spin generators that spin electric motors to spin the propellers? if they can move on battery power, i could call them "true hybrids." if not, just combining electric propulsion motors with a generator doesn't make the loco or the truck any more "hybrid" than big earth-movers that are diesel-hydraulic!

no motor, no move = no hybrid.

words do have meanings and concepts can get cloudy if the wrong words are carelessly used....

imnsho... ;)

tBaleno, please let me be more specific than 0-2 mph or 0-40 mph. i don't think those are part of the definition of "hybrid." recall that in the Prius, with which i'm most familiar, it isn't a hybrid because it can do 40mph in EV mode, it's a hybrid because it combines electric and ICE propulsion, separately or together, at all speeds! them motor-generators are busy at virtually all speeds. to me, that makes all the difference, and that both the battery AND ICE are used for propelling the car.
'k?

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

The Prius sells about 3 times as many units as the Escalade. The hybrid Escalade will be an even smaller niche. I would not be too hopeful about the hybrid Escalade outselling the Prius.

So, are going to buy an Escalade hybrid when they come out?

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Well... If we're using EV propulsion as the definition of a hybrid, then the Civic, Insight, Accord, Vue, and Silverado aren't hybrids.

Of course, my unofficial definition of a hybrid is this:
-- Vehicle has electric motor and batteries that help push the car.
-- Fuel economy improves by at least 25%
-- Vehicles that meet #1 but not #2 are considered stop/start systems, not true hybrid systems.

Thus by my difinition, the Civic and Insight are well within the range of real hybrid, the Accord squeaks by, and Vue/Silverado are stop/start hybrids.

Whether the Cadillac Escalade actually gets 25% better fuel economy has yet to be seen since the vehicle doesn't exist yet. Given GM's timeliness on innovation, we'll see it around 2015.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I wasn't aware that was the case. Looks like I learned something. I was under the impression that the improved FE was due to the autostop.

Thanks

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I know that the battery in my Mercury Mariner Hybrid does NOT pre-heat the catalytic converter. In fact, every time the Mariner/Escape Hybrid is started the ICE must run long enough to bring the CAT up to operating temperature.

As for "Hybrids" I believe that they should be defined as having some form of onboard energy storage (battery or the recently developed hydraulic system) and a method of employing that stored energy to propel the vehicle.....be that in EV mode or assisting the ICE. Both the Prius and its EV mode, and the Civic and its Motor Assist mode are true Hybrids. A vehicle that simply shuts down a few cylinders or shuts off at red lights is not a hybrid, as the term hybrid implies a mesh of two different things (ie gas and electric).

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I wonder how much a stop/start system like Toyota's IISS actually costs? For example, if GM designed an inexpensive stop/start system that could be applied to the majority of their vehicles at a cost low enough that consumers wouldn't really notice, it would probably save a lot of gas in a collective sort of way.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

3) Prius $20 something K.........Escalade $50 something K.......Escalade Hybrid $?$?$?$?$?

4) Capacity. Escalade will share 2-Mode system component capacity with Tahoe, Yukon, and possibly Dodge Durango and other not yet announced potential products.

Peace,

Martin

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

You will see the Chevy Tahoe 2-Mode

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/...brid_tahoe.jpg

and the GMC Yukon 2-Mode around November 2007. The Escalade timing has not been publicly announced yet so I obviously won't be doing that here, but trust me it won't be long after these two, since they use the same hybrid systems. :zip: By the way.....one of the beauties of this system is you can still run the AC with the ICE off. :shade:

As for the 25% improvement is concerned, the biggest "threat" to the 25% is that the base / non-hybrid vehicle may improve enough in efficiency that overall raw number for the hybrid will improve, but potentially be a tick under 25% (like 24.something).

Peace,

Martin

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Do you think the Silverado will get 2-mode, or do you think it will remain a FAS hybrid?

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I have to contain my comments to discussion of publicly announced products. Feel free to read between the lines.

Peace,

Martin

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

;)

BTW, I did't realize the escalade was going to be 2 mode.

I'm realy excited to see another player in the hybrid market. I hope GM can do well. I loved what I saw at the auto show. Now just get your people to impliment it right :) And try to put it in something smaller so we can afford it ;)

bring back the metro with 2mode ;)

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

This is the link to the site I referenced earlier. Click on "Understanding the Prius" and then click on "The Internal Combustion Engine". I can't provide a link directly to this page for some reason.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I Hope it does come out, it will be the hottest thing on a streets.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Ed Begley Jr's gonna love this.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

Absolutely, not everyone is gonna driving the priuses, that's why I Praise cadillac for making this decision.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

This escalade hybrid will have the new meaning of the word enviourment

and the best looking SUV since the invention of the muscle car.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

I too hate the fatc that everybody seems to want a truck now also. But I have a seperate reason for my hatred. I am in construction, and do need a truck for personal reasons. I drive my TCH when I am going to the office (I am a project manager, so I spend 80% of my time in the office) and drive the truck to the job site. The main reason I drive the truck to the job site is for clearance, since I am driving over broken concrete, thru rutts made by concrete trucks, and tru fields that are muddy. The TCH would just not be up to the tasks in those conditions. Now a HH or a escalade hybrid would work in those conditions I bet. I can't get the HH since I own a boat that weighs 5500 pounds on the trailer. Thee HH would end up spitting the electric motors on the pavements if I tried to pull it. So that leaves me with the option of the joke GM calls the BAS or a 2-mode escalade if that is what they are putting in there. Oh yea, Dodge is now selling the BAS in their trucks to select buyers, but I can't get that yet.

So, I have a 3/4 ton diesel truck to pull the boat around and go to the construction site.

Now back to my hatred of people overbuying the trucks. Since I am one of the people that actually has a legitamate need for a "truck type vehicle" I am penalized with super high prices by those that just want one. If people would not flock to the trucks so much, they would not be priced so unreasonably. That is my biggest gripe. To get a decent 4X4 3/4 ton diesel truck, you are spending over $45,000 and that is with cloth seats. That is rediculous, and the main reason I am still in my '02 Ford instead of a newer cleaner diesel.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

"If people would not flock to the trucks so much, they would not be priced so unreasonably."

The profit margin would fall, but because of smaller production runs, the final retail cost would almost certainly rise.

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

There's a big difference between 1/2 ton pick-ups and 3/4 ton pick-ups. Typically they aren't even manufactured in the same plants. In some cases they are manufactured in the same plants, but on different assembly lines. They may look the same, but under the skin they are dramatically different creatures.

The reason 3/4 ton trucks cost so much has little or nothing to do with truck popularity, since most casual truck users buy 1/2 ton pick-ups and SUVs based on 1/2 ton truck frames. It's because of all the additional structure, strength and capability built into 3/4 ton (heavy duty frames). Also, for most truck makers, today's diesels that meet today's regulations cost a lot more to manufacture than a similarly capable petrol engine. Option price for diesel powertrains vary, but they tend to START at $5,000 additional and up. Doesn't matter whether you've good spartan cloth or plush leather interior. When you check the "diesel" box, you just added a lot to the price. As diesels get cleaner through the addition of more after-treatment, they will undergo another level shift in cost and pricing.

The guy that's buying the 1/2 ton is probably helping keep the cost of your pick-up DOWN because the cost of the design and the EXPENSIVE dies used to shape the similar fenders, hoods, tailgates, door shells, bed panels and such cost substantially LESS when the cost of purchasing the dies is spread over a million plus units a year as opposed to the hundred thousand or so Heavy Duties that any manufacturer my sell in a given year.

Peace,

Martin

Re: Cadillac will get hybrid Escalade
 

You should come on down here to Texas and tell me that the average Joe is not buying 3/4 and 1 ton trucks.

I think a bunch of people started buying the deisel trucks for the novelty, and there is a nitch market segment that is buying them for their performance and upgradeability.

Either way the Tahoe 2-mode looks very interesting. Do you know if the ability to tow decent loads (around 9,000 pounds) will be affected by the hybrid system being implimented?