Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

Hopefully down the road we can get H2 right from water!

Electricity still has its downfalls, limited range, temperature, decreased lifespan of the car, plus how we get the power in the first place.

Added to the the cost of creating an electric network as well as the charges most places are sure to use to make some green off your plug.

Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

Hydrogen from natural gas is out of the picture when you're talking about the future because eventually natural gas will run out.

So...I'll talk about hydrogen from electricity, which will ultimately be the source of hydrogen when natural gas runs out. So, you take electricity, use it to make hydrogen, then you compress the hydrogen, to only be turned back intro electricity in the car again! :confused: I'm sorry, that just fundamentally doesn't make sense! Why not just put electricity into the car via the batteries. (well, you don't literally store electrons in batteries, but you know what I mean)

Anyways, right there, you've got the obvious advantage for EVs (electric vehicles) : efficiency. Hydrogen is still very efficiency, but EVs are still a large step ahead arena.

Then you got infrastructure. One mile of hydrogen pipeline is one million dollars, according to Popular Mechanics. And I believe them because in 1998 a pipeline of 222 miles was built from Turkey to Russia for 3.4 billion (US) dollars!:omg: (source: http://www.offshore-technology.com/p...s/blue_stream/) You can't say the natural gas will simply be moved around with the existing natural gas infracture because I'm assuming that we are using electricity, and natural gas wouldn't be a good long-term option because then you are just prolonging the chagnes that will have to happen when it doesn run out.

A comprehensive hydrogen infrastructure would probably cost tens of billions of dollars. Of course, the other option is everyone having their own hydrogen producing station. This would probably work out okay. But....I'd imagine that a charger (that just puts electricity into a battery) would cost much less than a water electrolyzing machine that then has to compress the hydrogen into car at many thousand psi. It would probably be larger and would be louder than a simple charger. (Have you ever heard the PHILL for the Honda Civic) True....some electricity infrastructure would be needed for apartments and such, but obviously less than a hydrogen infrastructure. EVs wouldn't require many moer power plants beause they would be charged at night when power plants are running low (b/c when the car is near a plug in a garage, it'd be more convenient than having ot find a parking space witha plug druing the day) So here, EVs win in infrastrucutre.

Both EVs and FCVs have problems with reliabiloty. Yes, fuel cells wear down over time like batteries. Both EVs and FCVs have problems with range. FCVs do have an advantage with fueling time though. That's for sure! :P

I think money will decide the winner. :shade:

Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

What about this progression hydrogen is extracted from air , from solar photovoltaic electric. is that clean enough?

Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

http://world.honda.com/news/2001/c010710.html


solar produced hydrogen from water it can be done. Overcoming physics always takes great energy which sometimes is translated in terms of dollars

Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

From the fcx.honda web-site "The FCX Clarity is ready for the road. A limited number of these groundbreaking vehicles will be leased to Southern
Californians starting during the summer of 2008.

The reason for this limited initial release is that in order to drive a fuel cell vehicle, you have to be able to refuel it. And since these clean cars do not run on gasoline, you can’t just stop off at your regular corner gas station to fill up. Hydrogen fuel stations are critical to the deployment of a fuel cell car and, as it stands now, stations accessible to the public are still quite limited.

Therefore, only customers currently residing in the Torrance, Santa Monica and Irvine areas who meet additional qualification criteria will be eligible to take an FCX Clarity home. Honda wants to ensure that FCX Clarity drivers will be able to take their vehicles in for service at participating dealers and have convenient access to refueling stations. Sales will be handled through American Honda Motor Co., Inc. in conjunction with local dealers. Collision insurance and maintenance will all be covered by the three-year $600/month lease.

If you live outside the area, don’t worry. We plan to roll out more of these amazing vehicles as more hydrogen refueling options become available. A key component of this effort is the development of Honda's Home Energy Stations. At Honda we believe that hydrogen fuel cells have the power to change our society’s energy and mobility needs, and we are thrilled to have met this milestone with the introduction of the all-new FCX Clarity."

We're still not quite to the point where I'd call this a PRODUCTION model. This is a closed-end 3-yr lease (no promised opportunity to OWN the vehicle), it's only available in a limited area, with only "hope" that more hydrogen refueling options become available (which presumably will expand this "rollout." The true cost of these vehicles is still unknown. They could be $200K automobiles for all we know. Honda is using this (hopefully) as a large-scale experiment to gauge consumer acceptance, fuel-cell reliability, affordability, and feasibility of manufacturing/selling them in a true Production environment. Potential VOLUME of sales is important too. Honda does not want to have to support a new technology product with very few on the road. Equipping dealerships for service/mechanics & parts becomes way too expensive, but you've got to support your product. There are still issues Honda must evaluate before this is a slam-dunk Production model.
Honda (and we) will know more about "IF" these are viable as a true Production model in a couple years.
I hope the only really big issue IS the lack of current re-fueling options, but we just don't know for sure. Honda is leading us to believe that is the case, but they're NOT stating it. Their actions (in not allowing an actual purchase) may be speaking louder than the carefully crafted words they are using.
At the moment, this sounds just like the "promise" of earlier attempts in California, with the EV-1 and others. This may turn out differently (and I think it will), but it is certainly not there today.

Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

Energy to crack water and extract H2...where and how much? More than just charging a battery...FOUR times, in fact. EVnut.com.

Range is 300 miles, charge in 10 minutes, last 20 years. Renewables can charge these batteries. Tesla Motors.com.

I understand many don't have access to an outlet...many more don't even know what H2 is! Plenty of people can use a plug-in option. Even fewer would be able to fuel at an H2 station. All around you there are electrical outlets. It seems a no-brainer to me. Maybe it IS better to have a more complicated structure, instead of just a plug-in EV (sarcasm).

Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

perhaps you should check outside sources before posting hype from Tesla's own website.

charge time: 3½ hours

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster
Gizmodo

Also the Tesla expected life is 100,000 miles. That would come much sooner than 20 years for most drivers making the care less useful for resale.

The obvious disadvantage with full electric power is charge time and life of the car. For companies who need large haul trucks or light trucks this would be a poor choice, resulting in the need to have multiple trucks just so they can leave some charging. The range limits their use here as well.

Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

That's okay, maybe I'll be wrong about the laws of physics too. Hydrogen is soooo not the way to go for transportation fuel. Too inefficient ENERGY CARRIER. Something is better and has been for the past 10 years and looks to still be more efficient in the future. It's called your electrical outlet. I, for one am NOT waiting for H2 cars.

http://www.evnut.com/

too many great links to ignore. the data, the stats, the cars are all here.

Re: Honda FCX Clarity Unveiled in LA
 

Do you have some kinda of personal Vendetta? Run over by a honda driver once perhaps? Everything you post is borderline toyota worship.