GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

I'm not selling my Prius nor holding up a future hybrid purchase on a "could." After all, we've heard so much BS about hydrogen from the same source that their credibility is shot.

My heartfelt sympathies for the Saturn VUE green buyers. Don't feel too bad, my wife and I once had a Chevette.

Bob Wilson

ps. On the Sunday evening news, the ABC commentator all but broke out laughing with the comment, 'GM plans to have it out in 10 years.' You know it is a sad day when even news reporters are trying to suppress laughing.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Sounds like GM is handicapping the Volt, before it even hits the marketplace. 40 miles (max)? The defunct EV1 was better than that, years ago.
It sounds conspicuously familiar - like they don't want it to succeed. Maybe the 3 cylinder gas engine will extend the range somewhat, but with a 40-mile range and a 6+ hour recharge time, they already KNOW there'll be ZERO real demand for this. Looks more like a "token" interest, to show the public that "GM is interested in EV." Yeah, right.
I hope I'm wrong, and that GM is actively looking to shore up this car's shortcomings. It's a good-looking car, at least :)

The following quote sounds promising, although I don't know how bright running out of battery power is (for long-term battery health): In the event a driver forgets to charge the vehicle or goes on a vacation far away, the Volt would still get 50 mpg by using the engine to convert gasoline into electricity and extending its range up to 640 miles, more than double that of today’s conventional vehicles.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

I took a peek at the North American International Auto Show list of announcements and found the Saturn Aura had taken the journalism prize. So I began to wonder what auto journalists consider a prize winner:

Model: Saturn Aura, 2007, specifications
Trim: XR FWD V6 trim
Invoice: $22,389
ICE: 3.6L 252 hp L6
EPA: 20/28

So I wondered how it compared to a Camry hybrid:

Model: Toyota Camry, 2007
Trim: Hybrid FWD L4
Invoice: $23,310
ICE: 2.4L 187 hp L4
EPA: 40/38

The Honda Fit was also in the running but the web page I was using for specitifications does not list the Honda Fit (yet.) Regardless, the top three were:

Saturn Aura
Honda Fit
Toyota Camry

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/13/n...sts-announced/

Bob Wilson

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

What a great concept! If GM stuck with the EV1, it would have evolved into the Volt and be in production today.
Now we have to pray that GM can be profitable enough to realistically take on the money pit that will be the Volt.
Thank Jah for rednecks that will pay over 30k for a pickup truck.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Gee, if you spend an extra $900, you double your gas mileage? What a "no brainer" . GM is just a twitching corpse.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

That was a terrible cheap shot... the AURA makes 65 more horsepower.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

The GM volt? I don't get it.

GM wants to replace the ev-1 because it didn't have a generator? So they crushed all the ev-1s at the end of their leases? Now they want to sell a hybrid variant (ev-2?) that has the gas engine disconnected from the transmission?

Plus, they contracted with a Chevron subsidiary to produce the battery technology breakthrough by 2012 at the latest?

Does that sound wierd to anyone else?

"A technological breakthrough required to make this concept a reality is a large lithium-ion battery. This type of electric car, which the technical community calls an "EV range-extender," would require a battery pack that weighs nearly 400 pounds (181 kg). Some experts predict that such a battery - or a similar battery - could be production-ready by 2010 to 2012. " autobloggreen

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Actually, GM didn't even wait for the leases to expire. They just stranded their customers at the dealer. You could have brought your EV1 in for a front-end alignment or some other repair and then be told that you couldn't have the car back. You'd have to call a cab to get home.

I also don't see why they can't just connect the engine to the transmission, use an array of NiMH cells, and sell the car THIS YEAR. In that configuration, you'd have a very robust "mild" hybrid. In other words, you'd basically have a GM version of a Honda Civic -- a hybrid that also gets 50 MPG.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Toyota is now pushing to get into the large truck segment, because it's very profitable. Their large trucks get the same mileage or less than GM's.

2006 standard Toyota Tundra 16/20 mpg
2006 standard Chevy Silverado 17/21 mpg

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

GM is coming out with a 2-mode Hybrid in 2008 with technology developed jointly with Daimler and BMW. That will produe a Saturn Aura that gets 40mpg.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

A Satun Aura that gets 40 mpg two years from now won't be able to compete with the next generation of Prius which will be here in 2 years and get-- by some accounts-- 90 mpg at about the same price point. Sure you might be short 65 or more horsepower. But what good's that horsepower if we've got a prolonged multilateral war in the middle east not by country but by ethinc group -- between the Sunnis and Shia -- that raises gas prices from $2.20 to $22.20?

I'd like some of the science-minded folks' input on this who not connecting the ICE to the drive train. It's either brilliant or ludicrous. I'm guessing if Toyota didn't think of it it's ludicrous, but some people have raised a small on board biodiesel generator as a solution to the limited range of EVs on this very message board.

I think the Volt really needs to be seen as that. It's an Electric car, with an engine on board to help increase it's range.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Hi Steve,

I pretty much agree with everything you've posted:
Careful what you ask for. What I'd like to suggest is a better model to explain what is achievable and how. This also addresses the next performance barriers.

DRAG

The ultimate performance limit is vehicle drag consisting of a fixed part, rolling/operating drag and variable part, aerodynamic drag. If you follow some of the extreme hypermiler techniques, you'll find they concentrate on drag reduction to the point of nibbling at the legal and safety limits. The Mother Jones article does an excellent job of summing up what that means. But to be practical, we need 'smart highways.'

What smart highways means is we integrate our cars with communications and sensors so they can form "car trains" where the cars are inches apart at cruising speed. Traffic lights and most signs are unimportant because the cars adjust their speed to form 'clusters' that pass through intersections without stopping or impacting. Finally, freed from the burdens of steering, accelerating and braking, everyone becomes a passenger who can enjoy the creature comforts of their car, talk or sip a coffee beverage instead of rushing to get away from the burdens of driving.

Done right, we could go on long trips by telling the vehicle systems where we want to go and then taking a nap while the car chauffeurs us to our destination.

DRIVE EFFICIENCY

The breakthrough of our hybrid electric drives is the smoothing of peak ICE power demands so a smaller, more efficient ICE can be used. The Honda IMA adds low-end torque to the ICE as well as variable valve timing. The Toyota HSD does the same and adds low-compression with high-expansion ratio (Atkinson cycle) and the ability to cycle between ICE and EV modes. But what forces the size of the ICE or any power plant is the drag.

You are right that the Volt is an electric car with an on-board, battery charger. This means the battery charger engine can be optimized to operate in a very efficient energy mode. But it also means some previously, unused engines become practical.

One of the more interesting systems are microturbine alternators. Current models operate at 28% efficiency while providing heat that can be used downstream for heating, cooling and other cycles (aka., Sterling.) However, they operate at a single power setting so batteries are critical to handling the variable demands of driving.

So where do we go from here?

In my case, it is to fully map my vehicle's drag and power characteristics. Then my plan is to modify my vehicle controls so it maximizes its time in high efficiency modes. This solves my immediate performance problem.

A secondary goal is to look at reducing drag and improving total power plant efficiency. Improved lubricants, aerodynamic tweaks and an exhaust energy cycles are possible and I've done some work and continue to look at these 'low hanging fruit.' Of course the basics like tires, alignment and ordinary systems have to be looked at too.

Under consideration is to look at smart-car sensors and systems. For example, speed management can be route and traffic sensitive. This can exploit the terrain and even sync with the lights.

So, are you sorry you asked?

Bob Wilson

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Request: Could you avoid dissing Wayne Gerdes (xcel) like you have with his site and Insight Marathon in the past? What Wayne does in the Mother Jones article admittedly is what few people would do, but articles are generally written about people that do unusual things, like the guy that ran 50 marathons in 50 days.

What Wayne would love to see is the general population work in a few hypermiling techniuqes into typical driving. I get better fuel economy cruising at 70mph than I did six years ago - it's safe, legal, and others can freely pass. I highlighted the pejoritives from the quote above that imply Wayne and other hypermilers may have questionable judgement.

Wayne strongly backs smart highways, but as with many things in life it works better with smart people. While I'm not favoring every endevor to be hard, so many people today want to do things with no effort at all, including driving. Better technology is a good thing, but better with people exploiting it. Wayne does that as does most of the people at this forum. You do too, Bob.

The great thing about hybrids is they recover wasted kinetic energy, but some of it will always be lost. The recovery (feel free to give a better estimate) is around 30%. That's why both hypermiling and non-aggressive driving is relavant in a hybrid.

The approach may be different, but Wayne also seeks saving fuel and reducing emissions. If that is our goal, we need to work together, not at each other - our numbers make the US troop strength in Iraq seem robust in comparison.

Thank you

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

So it's OK to call Wayne into question publically without even contacting him privately, but you deserve the respect you are unwilling to give Wayne. {sigh} Disagreening per see is not a problem, but in this instance, this is a crusade against other green brothers.

Your reply suggests disagreeing with you is my "problem". I'll be happy to talk to you privately once you can stop attacking Wayne and hypermiling like it was Art Spinella and CNW Marketing. That you put him in your crosshairs as if it he was ungreen is irrational.

It does not help that your PM to me also shouts between the lines the only thing you can accept is agreeing with you.

Again, we certainly can talk privately if you can be respectful.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

To get the thread somewhat back on the "Chevy plug-in." What I'd like to suggest is a better model to explain what is achievable and how. This also addresses the next performance barriers.

DRAG

The ultimate performance limit is vehicle drag consisting of a fixed part, rolling/operating drag and variable part, aerodynamic drag. If you follow some some techniques, you'll find they concentrate on drag reduction to the point of nibbling at the legal and safety limits:

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/rss/c...g_campaign.htm

"Campaign background
This campaign is part of the Department of Transport and Urban Planning’s approved Road Safety Communications Overview for the year 1 July 2004 to 30 June 2005.

According to crash statistics, about one third (13 400) of all crashes in South Australia are rear end crashes. Tailgating (following other vehicles too closely) causes most of these. Tailgating has not been targeted previously through an advertising campaign in South Australia. There is an opportunity through this campaign to bring about a major reduction in the number of rear end crashes through increasing awareness of the severity of the problem.
. . . "

Also:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/documents/udarepo.pdf

"THE UNSAFE DRIVING ACTS OF MOTORISTS
IN THE VICINITY OF LARGE TRUCKS"

But for these techniques to be practical with the attendant reduction in drag, we need 'smart highways.' That is the 90 MPG barrier.

What smart highways means is we integrate our cars with communications and sensors so they can form "car trains" where the cars are inches apart at cruising speed. Traffic lights and most signs are unimportant because the cars adjust their speed to form 'clusters' that pass through intersections without stopping or impacting. Finally, freed from the burdens of steering, accelerating and braking, everyone becomes a passenger who can enjoy the creature comforts of their car, talk or sip a coffee beverage instead of rushing to get away from the burdens of driving.

Done right, we could go on long trips by telling the vehicle systems where we want to go and then taking a nap while the car chauffeurs us to our destination.

DRIVE EFFICIENCY

The breakthrough of our hybrid electric drives is the smoothing of peak ICE power demands so a smaller, more efficient ICE can be used. The Honda IMA adds low-end torque to the ICE as well as variable valve timing. The Toyota HSD does the same and adds low-compression with high-expansion ratio (Atkinson cycle) and the ability to cycle between ICE and EV modes. But what forces the size of the ICE or any power plant is the drag.

You are right that the Volt is an electric car with an on-board, battery charger. This means the battery charger engine can be optimized to operate in a very efficient energy mode. But it also means some previously, unused engines become practical.

One of the more interesting systems are microturbine alternators. Current models operate at 28% efficiency while providing heat that can be used downstream for heating, cooling and other cycles (aka., Sterling.) However, they operate at a single power setting so batteries are critical to handling the variable demands of driving.

So where do we go from here?

In my case, it is to fully map my vehicle's drag and power characteristics. Then my plan is to modify my vehicle controls so it maximizes its time in high efficiency modes. This solves my immediate performance problem.

A secondary goal is to look at reducing drag and improving total power plant efficiency. Improved lubricants, aerodynamic tweaks and an exhaust energy cycles are possible and I've done some work and continue to look at these 'low hanging fruit.' Of course the basics like tires, alignment and ordinary systems have to be looked at too.

Under consideration is to look at smart-car sensors and systems. For example, speed management can be route and traffic sensitive. This can exploit the terrain and even sync with the lights.

So, are you sorry you asked?

Bob Wilson

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

A discussion of hypermiling, the Insight Marathon in "Anything Goes"?

Perjoratives such as "Sacred Cow" and agreeing with you as "Come to Jesus" do not help things.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

I'm just going to ignore the argument going on above and say that the new Volt does have an appealing look, but the features and range, etc., seem disappointing. One point that requires clarification: people have mentioned the 40 mile figure as its range, but that does not quite work, because there is a small engine, there will be gasoline, and the 40 mile figure is cited as the distance the car can go without burning any of the gas. So what's the actual range, then, assuming that the gas IS used to recharge the batteries as you go? Just curious.

Also, it seems to me that this won't actually hurt the Saturn VUE much, as some here have suggested. The timing is so off, for one thing. Also, a vehicle with a range on the order of 40 miles, or whatever it is, doesn't seem to me like it would be terribly insurmountable in-class competition. Just my first reaction, based on little more than this article.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Thank you for bringing the thread on-topic, leahbeatle. :)

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Remember, there is no actual Volt. I'm not saying what I took pictures of at NAIAS wasn't real, but that the vehicle "as advertised" doesn't exist in reality, just on paper and in testing. However, they're looking at a range of about 700 miles assuming you run down the PHEV portions and use the onboard gasoline generator until you're in need of another refueling.

Let's all be mature, and pretend this squabble didn't happen between Delta Flyer and Bob Wilson. If we can't, and that doesn't get dropped, I'm going to have to soft delete posts and so forth, and really, I hope that's not necessary.

Re: GM shows Chevy plug-in concept
 

Hi Chuck,
I haven't measured the regenerative energy efficiency but 30% counting both capture and subsequent use in drive is probably not too far off from the real world. In ordinary driving, the rates of battery charge and discharge reduce the regenerative round-trip efficiency significantly. NOTE: this will be an important aspect of the Volt if it ever arrives in the show rooms.

We typically deal with battery "C" units, the ampere hour, which for a Prius is 6.5 Ah. If regeneratively charging a battery at 1C, it would provide ~1.9 kW of braking power, about 2.6 hp. This would be painfully inadequate and limiting the battery acceleration to 6.5 A would be even worse. We're typically seeing much higher charge/discharge rates, 5-10C, and the efficiency really falls off in this range.

Fortunately hybrid vehicle efficiency, at least with the Prius, is much more than kinetic energy recovery. A better model, one that is reproducible, starts with the vehicle characteristics.

The primary determination is vehicle drag because that sets the upper limit on what can be achieved at any given speed. The product of the drag times the speed gives the power required to maintain that speed. A driver can do worse but they can't do better without making modifications to the vehicle to reduce the drag: (1) rolling and (2) aerodynamic. For example, rolling drag is helped by tires, alignment and lubricants and aerodynamic changes require shields and fairings.

The second aspect is efficient power plant operation. This means making sure the ICE and hybrid drive systems stay in the maximum efficiency range. In the case of the Prius at speeds below 42 mph, the vehicle control computers will cycle between efficient ICE operation and battery cruise without any further effort by the driver. My Prius ICE efficiency runs about 31% at speeds under 70 mph. But for efficient driving, just hold the vehicle at a steady speed on a level surface.

Near as I can tell, holding my NHW11 Prius at 15 mph on a flat surface (aka., shopping mall parking lot) gives over 100 MPG as long as one wants. I've done this three times over 30 minute intervals at temperatures as low at the mid-50s. A Ford Escape, Highlander, Camry or Lexus should, if held to the same, steady 15 mph should get outstanding MPG on a standard day.

The third aspect is route planning or 'smart highway' driving. That means avoiding braking and where possible, minimizing the rolling and aerodynamic drag. But on the commons of public roads, that takes planning.

Bob Wilson