John, not trying to argue, but do you think there is a chance your that your "barely learning" about neutral could be incorrect? Ron at LL told me he had to make some changes to the CAN programming.

At any rate, I've found more information regarding the disconnect between the drive wheels and the FEH eCVT. It appears there is a clutch located on the countershaft within the eCVT as I suspected.

The Prius neutral system is not the same as the FEH/MMH. A disconnect means had to be provided for many reasons. First, the weight of the FEH/MMH make it critical that the eCVT be disconnected from the wheels during braking. The inertia of the two electric motors and gearing within the eCVT require this disconnecting clutch at the counter shaft within the eCVT. If a disconnect was not provided, a heavy braking event could easily damage these turning motors with there powertain torque inertia.

This disconnecting clutch also allows the neutral position to disengage the wheels as explained in the FEH workshop manual and other safety concerns during an accident or motor freeze.

GaryG

 

No Gary, I'm certain. There is no doubt about what the code is for RPM and it has been cross checked and verified by two other owners.

It appears the only time that anything is ALLOWED to disconnect is when the power is totally off to the vehicle, such as in a neutral tow behind with key off.

Disconnect when braking? Now you are joking. Or smoking something you shouldn't be.

In an emergency, such as a collision, it is likely that the inertial switches would cut all power in a fraction of a second, and then, the transmission could disconnect. So I think this is where your confusion lies.

Neutral with power on is not the same as neutral with power off.

P.S. I think you need to start thinking about what makes sense, not what is "theoretically possible".

 

garyg, where in the workshop manual does it talk about a clutch or disconect I have been reading trying to find it?

 

I would like to know that too.

But beware, the same "manual" applies to the Hybrids, and regular 4cyl Escapes, and also the V6 Escapes, as well as the Mariners.
It has hybrid "sections".
Many errors have been noted, and it is commonplace to "cut & paste" documents from other models, when the parts described are assumed to be the same between models. ( Such as air bag modules, etc. ) No proof-reader is perfect, and this is the first go around at a hybrid, so you need to ask yourself if something does not make sense, what are the chances of a typo? or it belonging to the V6 section and not the hybrid?

Also beware of semantics. "Disconnect" most often means power wise, not machinery wise.

 

No need to accuse me of joking or smoking something. This has been the reason of the start of name calling that leads to more GH violations and fighting in this forum. All I've tried to do was explain what Ford Hybrid Engineers wrote:

"In accordance with the present invention rapid changes in powertrain angular momentum stemming from sudden braking is controlled by limiting or substantially eliminating the amount of reactive torque transmitted between the traction wheels 68 and the powertrain components upstream from the wheels, particularly those contributing higher effective rotational inertias. As will be described below, this inertial control can be carried out by either completely disconnecting high inertia powertrain components from the wheels 68, in response to a braking event, or by reducing the amount of reactive torque transmitted through the driveline during a braking. The inertial control of the present invention may be implemented using one or more clutches 72 for selectively disengaging high inertial components of the powertrain 74. For example, a clutch 72 may be interposed between gear sets 60 and 64 to disengage the electric motor 54 from the differential 66. Alternatively, a clutch 72 may be interposed between gear sets 50 and 64 to disengage both the electric motor 54 and engine 10. In order to effect even greater control over powertrain inertia, one or two clutches 72 may be installed between the differential 66 and the traction wheels 68, thereby allowing disengagement of the entire powertrain 74 from the traction wheels 68."

I really don't know why you've thrown the key-off thing in, but no one I know turns the key-off before hitting the brakes. Well, maybe a seasoned FAS'er like myself maybe caught in that situation someday.

As for the reason you may see motor speed on the SG, synchronizing maybe it:

"In many cases, it may be desirable to reconnect the driveline and powertrain 74 with the wheels immediately following a braking/powertrain disconnect sequence. For example, when a vehicle passes over a series of ice patches, the vehicle's ABS system may be successively activated for brief periods, resulting, each time in the powertrain being disconnected from the wheels. If however, during the period of disconnection, the driveline speed falls substantially below that of the wheels, the reconnection process may produce substantial NVH, and in some cases, possibly damage the driveline components. Therefore, in accordance with the present invention, the driveline speed is synchronized with that of the wheels before they are reconnected. This is achieved by sensing both the driveline and wheel speeds using corresponding sensors 110, 112, and determining the speed difference using the controller 76. Based on the determined speed difference, the controller transmits a control signal to any of the motor 54, generator 36 or the engine 10 to increase driveline speed until it is within a preselected range of the wheel speed, at which time the controller 76 deactuates the clutch 72 thereby effecting re-engagement."

Wow! what will these guys think of next? It sure feels like when I shift in and out of neutral, things are smooth also!

GaryG

 

Hey hey, I thought we'd moved past this silly name calling thing. Question the sources, queston the techniques, but don't call names or question their mental aptitudes or their use of narcotics.

Last warning, I go to infractions from here on out.

And extra points to going back and taking out any such personally offensive material.

 

Mark, there are a few places in the manual that talk about the disengagement of the wheels from the output shaft on the eCVT. Section 307-01B-2 is one of the places. There is no need for Ford to get into detailed drawings of repairing the eCVT, because it must be replaced as a unit if it fails.

There are two other gear sets other than the planetary set. It is within these final gears sets that disengagement can occur at the intermediate shaft.

GaryG

 

Notice every single example is preceded by the word "may"???
This also sounds like it could be an electronic control from an engineering standpoint, and NOT a mechanical process.

Also, it never ever stated "As Installed in a Ford Escape".
We've been over this before.....

I added only the parts in { added } braces.

There is strong evidence this "invention" is NOT USED in the Ford Escape Hybrid. Why? There is NEVER EVER any speed difference, thus there is never ever any need to re-synchronize, thus the only logical conclusion any reasonable person can make is, to simplify operation in all modes but catastrophic failure, is wheels stay connected. It may come down to it that engineers thought of all this, patented it just in case, and realized in the production model, it was not actually needed.

Do you know what is the perfect, 100% reliable way to eliminate all NVH ( noise, vibration, harshness)? It is to keep everything connected and just allow motors to freewheel. You may soon find out that engineers decided this was the best route to go by production date, and all the disconnect talk was just that, talk.

PLEASE!
GO OUT AND LOOK AT YOUR CAR! NOT PATENTS THAT DON'T APPLY!
I'm only posting what I have actually seen with my own eyes.

 

What this and other Ford patents are saying is, if you didn't have this disconnect, damage and personal injury could occur. Since Ford has acknowledged that damage and personal injury could occur in these patents without a disconnect of the drive wheels, I'd think Ford would have never released the FEH/MMH to the public.

Since I've now located where, what and how the disconnect works, I must leave it up to the other members to choose who is right. The patent explains why motor speed is still maintained during the disconnect, and this gives you an out as far as what your seeing on the SG. This now all makes sense to me now and explains why I coast much further in neutral.

GaryG

 

The amount of detailed information coming from this website is fantastic and not found elsewhere. It is one of the reasons I purchased my Escape Hybrid. I look forward to future topics.