Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Has anyone else had a problem with front rotors rusting and causing the brake pads to wear prematurely? That's what happened to me. The front rotors rusted so badly that they became pitted and caused premature wear on the brake pads. I had to have completely news rotors and pads installed in the front and had to have the rear rotors turned to remove a lighter layer of rust. The rear pads were not yet worn enough to require replacement.

The cost - $618! Needless to say, I'm not very happy with my Ford Hybrid at this point in time.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

It's been suggested on here that you can put your vehicle in neutral and brake to a stop periodically to remove rust from the rotors. The FEH wont let you do stuff like step on the brake and gas pedal at the same time to get the rotors and pads hot.
I do the brake test about once a week and more often if it gets wet. 55,000 miles and the original discs and pads are still good.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I second D-mac's suggestion. I do that same and still have the origional pads and rotors with very little wear and 54,511 miles on it.

Also, I do the same with my Emergency brake. I speed up to 20 MPH and then apply the E-Brake lightly until I come to a complete stop. I apply the foot brake, shift in to park, release the foot brake and then release the E-Brake. I do this maybe once a month. On my '07 MMH, it has two rear brakes, the rear disc brakes and drum in rotor brakes for the E-Brake.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Thanks for the tips! Sure wish I had read about doing that earlier. I've always been really easy on the brakes - - and in this case doing that probably actually made the situation worse by never cleaning off the rust - - so it just kept building up.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Sounds more like you got had by a service manager. Firestone or Goodyear..??

Light rusting of the braking surface area is SOP for brake rotors and heavy rusting for the other surfaces pretty much the same.

Rusting/pitted enough to wear brake pads out prematurely......NOT.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Sounds more like you got had by a service manager. Firestone or Goodyear..??

Light rusting of the braking surface area is SOP for brake rotors and heavy rusting for the other surfaces pretty much the same.

Rusting/pitted enough to wear brake pads out prematurely......NOT.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I use my e-brake to get rid of the grab caused by wet brakes when it rains, so mine get used at least once a month.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I had the work done by a supposedly reputable Ford dealer.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Hmmm..

Grab.....Wet brakes....GRAB....!!

It is my lifelong experience that if my brakes are wet I have very little braking at all, let alone "grab". BMW has new system wherein if the rain detecting wipers activate they automatic apply a light level of braking to keep the rotors dry just in case.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I suggest never having work done there ever again.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Hate to say it.....but I have to agree with Willard on this one. I've overheard it first hand at various dealers and shops - selling new rotors is a popular money maker. If it ever happens again, have them present you the 'service limits' of the rotors and the actual measurements. Thickness, parallelism, and runout measurements - if they claim the rotors are warped, etc. The pads are designed to wear out, the rotors are supposed to be good for the life(?) of the car, in many cases. [I would think at least 2 or 3 sets of pads]

Walt - FEHs are especially prone to "brake grab" - because of all the time for water to build up on the surfaces prior to the transition from regen braking to foundation (hydraulic) braking......particularly when the hydraulic brakes try and take over a few feet before full stop, during a gradual stop. As posted in this forum, the parking brake trick works to reduce the grab effect.

Actually.....must have been some quick heavy braking trick....personnally, I've just gotten used to preparing for the grab

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Please keep in mind that the rear wheels have two sets of brakes (at least in my '07 MMH it does). The parking brake trick activates the rear drum brakes while neutral braking activates the front and rear disc brakes.

Building on what Mr. glennb has stated, braking at high speeds with wet rotors/pads, a steam layer builds between the rotors and the pads that reduce braking power. Since FEH/MMH vehicles use regen braking at higher speeds and engages the disc brakes in the last few feet of stopping, the steam layer never develops. The water fills the gaps between the pads and rotors and increases the braking surface, increasing friction, causing brake grab and a jerky stop in the last few feet of braking (and causes my wife to look at me with a kind and loving WTF expression on her face as the kids are woken up). :)

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Correct, the parking brake or e-brake is a seperate small shoe type on the rear wheels.

Above somewhere sombody mentioned using the e-brake to eliminate brake grab when wet. That is a seperate set of shoes, nothing to do with the main set.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I live in the Seattle area.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

You are correct that a water layer will act as a lubricant (of sorts) until it is removed. Although, the brakes on the FEH are mostly computer controlled and have different characteristics than a standard braking system.

Here's the scenario, you're driving in water and request the FEH to slow down by pressing the brake pedal (a brake request sensor, for the most part). The computer recognises a change request from the pedal and notes the amount of change (how hard you're pushing the pedal and how fast). First the regenerative brake scenario is activated, if you as the driver are requesting more braking than is available from the regenerative system, the computer activates the friction brakes. The computer monitors the effect of the amount of braking pressure it applied to the pads/rotors and the braking result (by using an accelerometer type sensor).

-Here's where it gets tricky- Due to the wet rotor/pad, the initial braking force applied by the computer is not enough to reach the desired braking level and the computer (very quickly) adjust to add more friction braking pressure. At the same time, the water on the rotors is being displaced by the brake pad and the resulting heat/friction, thus restoring the normal pad/rotor resistance/friction. Together, the extra force from the computer adjustment and the drying effect on the rotor/pads causes a sudden increase in actual braking (felt as a "grab" by occupants of the vehicle). The computer also senses this momentary change in braking result and adjust/reduces pressure to maintain a more desired stopping effect.

This is, of course, how I see the system working based on my understanding of the two braking systems on the FEH and the wet stopping characteristics of a rotor/pad braking system.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I don't care how you explain it, using the e-brake to come to a stop from about 20 mph, dries out my brakes and they no longer grab. Works every time, just need to do it once. If I don't do it, they grab for many stops.

It's easy enough for someone else to test. We've been getting rained on about 2-3x a week lately.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I'm not trying to be a smartass but just think about it! If the e-brake is a seperate set of shoes only on rear wheels, how can it dry out the front brakes? You "might" generate enough heat on the rear brakes but that would take lots of use.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Bill, you're not reading my post.

I don't care what your explanation is, or how logical it may or may not be. It works and it's easy enough for anyone to test.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I had an excessive wear problem on the right rear brake pads. But it was caused by a sticky caliper. I don't see how rusty rotors could be the cause. I would think you'd have to be driving on the beach every day to get damage of that kind!

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I've only felt the "grab" 3 or 4 times in 117,000 miles, but have felt it.
I do most driving in semi-arid areas though. I do know I've felt what others describe.

IF (big if) using the hand brake for a few seconds eliminates this, then that implies only the rear brakes are doing the grabbing. Possible.

For me, it's no big deal since it is so rare.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

From the '09 FE/FEH WorkShop Manual.

The parking brake system consists of the following components:

• Parking brake control
• Parking brake warning indicator switch
• Front parking brake cable
• Parking brake cable equalizer
• Rear parking brake cables
• Rear drum brake components

The parking brake system is actuated when the parking brake control is depressed. The parking brake control applies tension to the front parking brake cable and conduit. The parking brake cable equalizer is coupled to the LH parking brake rear cable and conduit, and connected directly to the RH parking brake rear cable and conduit. The respective rear brake assemblies are then applied.

Like "gpsman1" says, it means that your rear brakes are getting wet and grabbing which is just like what I said. It just makes logical sense!

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Doug121041,

Did your service person mention what caused the rotors to rust? Perhaps something about the slide pins locking up and needing to be lubricated?

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

A locked up slide pin would only allow one side of the rotor to rust, remain rusted.

Plus a locked up slide pin is a fairly rare event let alone one on each floating caliper.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

What you said is all very true. But, a locked slide pin would explain why one pad wore down so quickly and why one rotor would be so rusted it would need to be replaced. Service centers will replace rotors in pairs (front pair and rear pair) to keep the widths of the rotors the same and to keep the left and right brake characteristics the same. I would suspect the rear rotors and brakes were fine and the rotors were turned and the pads replaced as a precaution.

Some service centers will often over do repairs to make sure customers don't have to bring vehicles in for a second time for the same issue. Had the front rotors and pads been replaced and the issues that caused the owner to bring in the vehicle in the first place persisted, the owner would most likely be upset because they paid for a service that, in their eyes, didn't fix the problem and second, the fact that they had to schedule another apt. and bring the vehicle in again for the same problem.

Additionally, it may have cost $400 to replace the front rotors at and pads at the first apt. and another $400 to turn the rear rotors and replace the pads (price including parts and labor) at the second apt. OR it would cost $600 to do the work on both the front and rear rotors and be 100% confident that the issue was taken care of.

Just trying to offer a different perspective. :)

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

I had an interesting conversation with my mechanic today. Admittedly our conversation had nothing to do with FEHs, but I nonetheless thought our conversation was informative. I was making the observation that some manufacturers use rear disk brakes and some don't. He said that he, of course, prefers to work on disk brakes because they're quicker and easier to replace, but then he noted that particularly with front drive vehicles, rear disk brakes are problematic, in that they often don't experience a lot of wear. He noted that in our climate (midwest) when the brakes aren't used from time to time, the brakes start to rust from the outside edge and inside surface, working their way to the center. He showed me a Subaru he had on the rack and it was obvious. I'd bet 1/3 of the surface was rusted on the outer and inner rotor surface. Of course, the pads wear to conform to the surface. That may explain why Ford went back to rear drum brakes on the Escape. It also may explain why you had the problem on the front rotors, since the regen does a lot of the braking.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Sorry, a rusted braking surface, rotor/pad frictional contact area, is an indication that SOMETHING is seriously WRONG.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Willard, both my '05 and '09 FEH's get rusted front disc with the way I drive. In fact, the front disc on my '09 needs to be cleaned again by using "N" to apply the brakes. There is nothing wrong with them and I have 72,000 miles on my '05 FEH brakes and they are in great condition still. I use to do all my brake jobs myself, but I'm to lazy to do them now.

GaryG

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Somehow, some way, we're not communicating.

The braking surface of a rotor will "rust" in as little as 24 hours, but the instant you apply the "brakes"(***) that light coating of rust will be wiped away, no exceptions, that I have ever known about.

Now, rust, lots of it, outside the pad frictional contact area, SOP.

It seems highly improbable to me that anyone could get through the day without the frictional brakes being used in multiple instances, and even one use would wipe away the rust.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Me, too! 38,021 miles.

My wife told me her 2009 Mariner hybrid was making a "wierd noise" when she braked. Pulled off the front wheel and the ouyboard brake pad looks like new - inboard pad was down to rivets and ruining the rotor. This was on both front wheels.

Took it in first thing this morning. Ford mechanic says caused by rust, they are replacing the pads and rotors, going through the hybrid procedure. $450. Ticks me off. I mentioned the great difference in wear outboard versus inboard. He says the inboard rotor side will rust much quicker then outboard. By the way, outboard side looks clean as a whistle - no rust. Inboard side of the rotors are pitted and grooved - but I figure the grooves were made by the rivets.

My wife is a lightfoot - so maybe I need to make sure the brakes get used every once in a while. Do the braking in nuetral thing.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

You're being sold a load of poles.....

Also, the wheel bearings have been under an undue level of stress.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

38,000 miles is way too soon for new brakes. I have an old car that sits outside for months at a time. The rotors rust so bad that they make grinding noises for about 20 miles. Then they burnish in a deep blue.

68,000 miles on the hooptie.

I'm driving a 2008 Yukon hybrid mostly now. 113,000 miles and the rotors and pads are perfect. About 70% pad left.

The braking in Neutral is a good idea to shut off Re-Gen braking. However, almost all hybrids will turn off Re-Gen on bumps. Stability control is more important than a few joules of energy.

Also, Re-Gen rolls out at lower speeds < 7 mph and friction blends in to finish most stops.

If you don't believe this get out and touch the rotor.

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

Reviews that I read when considering buying an FEH indicated a concern that the stopping distance on the hybrid Escape was longer than it should be and longer than a non hybrid Escape and suggested that disk brakes are needed on the rear. They attributed it to the increased weight of the battery pack.

(I couldn't find an FEH at a price that I liked and a month ago ended getting an '09 TCH with very low miles on it instead. I'd still like an Escape and preferably a 4WD one to pull a very steep dirt, granite gravel and rocky hill from a campground to our cabin in the Sierra that is definitely a 4WD hill part of an early 1900s mountain road. I was impressed that the Forest Service District Ranger visited us a couple of summers ago and drove an FEH 4WD up the hill and when I asked him about it he said they were buying them in his area from now on and they were working out very well.)

Re: Need new front brakes at 38,000 miles
 

My FEH has 72K on it with the original brake pads. Just took a wheel off to replace pads and have 6.5 - 7MM of pad left.