FEH and cold weather question
 

Hello,

Interesting forum and I have gotten some good information. After some research, we have decided to purchase a 2007 Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD. Currently waiting on the delivery of one of the only two I could find in searching dealer inventories in all of Anchorage. Due date--July 13. Anyways, one last question....does anyone have any information on how they do in very cold weather? I can't seem to find much information on how the batteries hold up--starting, warm up periods, etc. Also, does extreme cold affect the mileage numbers? I'd appreciate any help or advice anybody has.

Thanks

Lori

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

I thought there was an optional battery pack heater designed for extreme cold weather operation. However, I haven't been able to find any reference to it in the manual or via Google. Perhaps the dealer would know (Ha Ha!).



Pat

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Short answer... yes, it will affect warm up and therefore mileage. The ICE must run to keep the catalytic converter up at operating temperature. So it will take longer to warm up, and since it will cool off quicker, the ICE will need to run more often. That's the main reason it will affect MPG.

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Mine started fine in Feb-Mar (a day or two below freezing)... as for cost in mileage, hard to say. Mines a 4WD I seem to be getting 31 or so now and I was getting about 28 then.

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

I just took a look at the climatological data for Anchorage and based on that I would say that you will only have a couple months where you may not see the full benefit of the Escape Hybrid. Extreme cold pretty much prevents the vehicle from going into EV mode but the temperatures in your area don't seem to be much worse than the cold snaps we get here in New England. We had a real cold February and March this year (low single digits for weeks) and I was still able to get around 30 mpg (both of mine are front wheel drive).

As for starting and warmup in cold weather, I wouldn't worry about that. Even in subzero weather it would start right up and after waiting 5 seconds or less I would drive it away - just drive gently until the engine gets to temp. These cars warm up fast and within a mile or two you have heat.

At least you will have some warm weather to break it in.

Enjoy.

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

thanks very much to all who answered! I feel even better about our decision now and really looking forward to taking delivery. Most everyone has a plug in block heater for their vehicles in Alaska...below 20 degrees it's good to plug in and warm up the engine for an hour prior to start up. Helps to lower emissions. We stopped by the dealership yesterday and took a tour of some in-stock models and I saw that a block heater was a dealer installed option, so we will definitely be doing that. Thanks again

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Hi Lori

My Brother Richard live's in Wasilla, and we have talked about how his weather would not be a place for a hybrid, except for the summer. You will get trouble codes from the Traction Battery Control Module (TBCM) if the battery get's below -40F. I hope you have a warm place to kept it (garage) for those cold all day long nights!

The ideal battery temp is 77-82F, and my regen charging starts to act up around 55F untill the engine get's warm. The summer should give you great MPG in the FEH, but you will need the defrost most of the winter with little to no EV. You can tow the FEH safely in neutral up too 75mph though, do you have a good team of dogs? Just kidding!

Good luck and let us know how a hybrid makes it up there.

GaryG

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Lori, here is some news about my Brother just in BTW!
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/matsu...-7802240c.html

GaryG

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Living in Michigan, we get some pretty cold days.

With a few weeks in the sub-zero temperatures, with over a foot of snow, I averaged 28-29+ MPGs, a rather large decline from my current summer MPGs (36+ over the last five tanks!) It runs longer at startup, EV's less, and if you spend too much time idling, the ICE may come on to warm things back up. However, I was absolutely amazed by how quickly I got heat. Near instantly, and lots of it. No worries about the cold compartment.

So, yes, you'll take a mileage hit because of the cold, but remember, so does every vehicle.

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Hello,

I live in an icebox in Montana where it frequently gets in the -20F range and thirties and forties below are not uncommon. i am mean so my abused Escape has to sleep out in the street at all times. Mine came through several below zero periods this past winter with absolutely no problems starting or taking off -- NEVER failed. i bought mine out of state so it did not come with an engine block heater and i have not installed one either but mine always started right up in the cold weather. My experience here is that it costs more to run an engine block heater than the ICE in the Escape anyway. It does take a bit to thaw out in that weather, as with any vehicle, and i have considered a small electric plug in heater to defrost faster, its easier than hanging my head out of the window at 25 below. I did experience lower fuel economy, around 25-26 in the very cold weather since the engine had to run to defrost. i do suggest synthetic lubricants all the way around, i am a true convert to their improved performance in the cold. Here is a link to our climate data if interested! http://www.weather.gov/climate/?wfo=mso http://www.city-data.com/city/Butte-...w-Montana.html

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Thanks a ton to everyone who responded....I think I'll stick around and keep checking back, I am picking lots of great information here!! Gary, I had read that story about the Point Mack farm....good on 'em!! I grew up on a farm, spent lots of time around thoroughbred horse racing and every summer baling hay!! haha. I wish them all the best!!

Lori

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

I'm about the biggest fan of the Escape Hybrid there is.. but you may be the first person I would caution against getting one.

Your summers should be nearly ideal driving weather, but winters, not so sure.

32'F to 20'F is not bad at all. You can do what I do in Colorado and block the front end with cardboard or foam so you get close to zero forced air in front. I'm sure you see diesels in your area do this all the time.

With a blocked radiator, down to 20'F I saw very little reduction in MPG.

Below 20'F down to about 5'F, I got very little EV mode driving, and about 15% lower MPG. * radiator still blocked.

At plus / minus 5 from zero, expect the gas engine to run full time.

At -15'F below zero, my FEH started easily, but performed very poorly, and even acted very strangely at times, like reving the engine to 4,000 RPM while stopped at lights, in parking lots, and at McDonald's drive-thrus. I called on Ford engineering, and they said this fast reving in cold was NOT part of the design intent, and wished to have a look, but of course, could not replicate -15'F indoors in the lab ( service bay ).

You may be okay... and I think you will have the nicest, neatest, coolest car in town... but overall, may not save much gas... but on the other hand, it is also the world's cleanest gas engine even when it is burning gas, so you won't make much pollution.
:shade: -John

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

It's been a while since I checked back with this forum. We took delivery of our Ford Escape Hybrid here in Anchorage. We have gone through 2 winters. The car stays parked outside and we only occasionally use the plug in block heater. We've never had an error code or a problem with starting. I LOVE how fast the warm air starts coming out of the vents. The gas mileage is moderately reduced in winter driving, but we expected that. I love the Little Green Meanie, the way it handles and drives. I have no complaints and we love having 4-wheel drive, SUV AND hybrid capabilities.

Cheers

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

If I still lived in an ICE BOX, Cut Bank(??) MT, or Anchorage AK, I wouldn't even CONSIDER purchasing a hybrid vehicle unless I had an alternative vehicle, preferably RWD or R/AWD, for use during the winter.

There are only three advantages to a hybrid vehicle like the FEH/MMH.

BOOST for the smallish ICE provided by the electrics, somewhat equivalent to SuperCharging. Not of much use on a snow or ice covered roadbed, where "easy" start-offs are the norm.

Regenerative braking (think FREE gas), recharging of the hybrid battery.... Dangerous, highly dangerous (FEH/MMH = FWD or F/AWD), so much so that it is mostly disabled as the OAT approaches, declines toward and below, freezing(***).

Being able to shut the ICE down at certain times/conditions and rely only on the hybrid Battery. But in an ICE BOX on must work extraodinarily hard in order keep the engine coolant HOT (and thereby passenger compartment at least a tad warm) and the catalyst up to operational temperature.

My guess is that in those wintertime climates one would fare better FE wise with a standard F/AWD Escape.

*** I have seriously considered disabling regenerative braking during non-braking "coastdowns" on our 2003 Prius for just this reason.

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

>>>BOOST for the smallish ICE provided by the electrics, somewhat equivalent to SuperCharging. Not of much use on a snow or ice covered roadbed, where "easy" start-offs are the norm.>>>

You seem to really know what you are talking about, so I won't argue the mechanics or physics of the whole thing with you, but I can speak from personal experience. In Alaska, we don't drive on glaring sheets of ice...in fact, plain old snow covered roads have excellent traction and actually smooth out the potholes. With the exception of freezing rain storms or other obvious water/snow combinations, the road surfaces are just fine, hybrid vehicles for otherwise.

<<Regenerative braking (think FREE gas), recharging of the hybrid battery.... Dangerous, highly dangerous (FEH/MMH = FWD or F/AWD), so much so that it is mostly disabled as the OAT approaches, declines toward and below, freezing(***).>>

Again, no idea what your engineering explanation here is......yes, the time the ICE kicks on and engine shuts down are greatly reduced in cold weather and so is gas mileage...but still above what other 4 wheel SUV's get---never had any highly dangerous incidents in two years...maybe we are just a time bomb ticking though....


<<Being able to shut the ICE down at certain times/conditions and rely only on the hybrid Battery. But in an ICE BOX on must work extraodinarily hard in order keep the engine coolant HOT (and thereby passenger compartment at least a tad warm) and the catalyst up to operational temperature.>>

The passenger compartment is exceptionally warm and if I am not mistaken, the heater works from the electrical motor/battery and we actually have warm air in the passenger area much more quickly than any conventional vehicle we have ever owned. Why would the gas engine work "extraordinarily hard"? Any more so than a gas engine works in a normal vehicle? Again, from our experience, we LIVE in Alaska, we DRIVE a Hybrid in Alaska and we have no problem and we love it. I'm sure, though, on paper, we are completely wrong and that could not possibly be true. Us little bumble bees will just keep flying and you engineer types can just keep calculating!!
My guess is that in those wintertime climates one would fare better FE wise with a standard F/AWD Escape.

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Willard has debated his point of view with GPS1man in the past. It has been pointed out to Willard in the past that the hybrid battery temperature also plays a role in what he mentioning. When the hybrid battery temperature is in the normal operating range, things are pretty much normal with the FEH. It is true the colder temperatures do create more "resistance" for battery energy flow but not to the extent that Willard is referring to--hybrid vehicles do not belong in cold environments.

-Regenerative braking in cold weather: I have it and had in in below zero weather.
-Catalyst up to operational temperature: my scanguage reveals above 1000 degrees occurs within seconds-maybe 15 seconds top in frigid weather
-Non-hybrids providing better fuel economy than hybrid vehicles in frigid weather: sorry this is not my experience. It is true the hybrids are more sensitive to colder weather but still deliever better FE than any of my previous non-hybrid vehicles.
-warm air for the cabin area comes on quickly with my FEH

It should be noted the FEH's engine block heater does have a connection for the hybrid battery's heater. Something the Prius lacks.

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Poor Willard, he doesn't have a FEH, doesn't live or drive in frigid conditions and is probably headed for another debate with others.

Regenerative braking during simple coastdown periods is substantially reduced if the OAT is at a level condusive to icy, slippery, road surfaces.

Sorry, my experience is yes and no. When the hybrid battery temperature is warm, there is an increase in regenerative braking feedback via 'feel' and scanguage SOC readings when compared to a colder hybrid battery temperature. I have seen hybrid battery SOC increase via the scanguage with a simple letup on the gas pedal during coast down periods. I do this on my drive home from work even in the middle of winter. Heck, I can coast down a 1/2 mile 8% hill in "L" at 20 mph due to the regenerative braking when the hybrid battery is at normal operating temperature even during winter conditions.

after ICE shutoff (in an "ICE BOX") does it need to restart due to catalyst temperature, and/or engine coolant, quickly declining

I can obtain EV in the middle of winter when my Cylinder head temperature exceeds 185 degrees and my radiator temperature Fwt exceeds 154 degrees via my scangauge. I can continue in EV until my Fwt drops below 124 degrees. This does not occur rapidly especially when one uses the front grille blocks. My experince is the hybrid battery SOC decline or need for greater than 54 AMP is the frequent cause of ICE restart rather than cold radiator temperature or engine temperature.

Can we trust that your previous non-hybrids were weight and "functionally" equivalent to your FEH...?

My last vehicle was a Sable wagon which was about 150lbs lighter than my FEH. Can you produce data the Ford Escape non-hybrid 4 cylinder produces better fuel efficiency than the hybrid in winter conditions? The dealer I know in Northern Wisconsin can not produce this data.

Sure, and hell frooze over just last week.

I normally drive without a jacket (prefer a vest), winter hat or gloves when I am in Northern Wisconsin in the middle of the Winter.

The FEH has an OEM engine block heater...?? I never knew that, I have always thought the "block" provided the heat.

Ford has a better idea, the engine block heater is standard equipment in northern states.

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Are you saying the engine coolant is used to heat the battery compartment and you rely on convection flow from the EBH to heat the engine and the battery compartment or is that a more complex EBH "connection" than I imagine.

"Something the Prius lacks.."

Or maybe just simply doesn't need..??

The Prius is a much lighter vehicle and undoubtedly with a substantially lower CD vs the FEH/MMH. I guess I thought it was well understood that the FEH/MMH's hybrid battery had to be more robust and therefore required more "care and feeding" (active heating or cooling) over the Prius.

Priuses shipped north of the continental US border do have an electric resistance heater for windshield defrost/defog/demist.

"Ford has a better idea, engine block heaters are standard equipement for shipments to the northern states."

Sorry, just simply don't, cannot, buy into this statement. Ford dealers, NORTHERN dealers, might routinely install, or have installed, an aftermarket EBD, but I sincerely doubt that they are shipped from the factory so equipped.

GPSMAN1...

"Funny, I count 15 or 16 Advantages..."

Would you be so kind as to list for us the 12 or 13 extra advantages of the FEH/MMH you count...?

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

It is listed as a factory option, though I suppose it could be dealer installed instead.

Re: FEH and cold weather question
 

Here is a link revealing Ford has the engine block heater (option 41H) as standard equipment in the Escape Hybrid for the northern states:
http://www.automobilemag.com/am/2008...s_options.html

41H Engine Block Heater - $0
Block heater; Standard in AK, MN, ND, SD, MT, WI and W; Excludes: [41H] Engine Block Heater (Fleet)



There is nothing more I can add to this thread. This information has been discussed in other threads and we do not need to repeat this.;)