Is this a real hybrid?
 

...or is it just one of GM's alternator-modification?
Just wondering.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

It's one of the lame ones, but my understanding is it does allow the ICE to turn off at stops and may provide some acceleration assist for a small MPG gain.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

From my description of the 2008 Malibu:

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

The 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon are the first 2-mode "real" production hybrids available to purchase from GM. The Silverado, Sierra and Escalade are following them this fall. Other than the Volt, I haven't heard of what other GM sedans will make the 2-mode jump. (anyone??)

The press labeling the Aura, Vue, Malibu, etc as not being "real" hybrids has hurt their sales. Which is a real shame since even with the inept belt-alt-starter the 2009 EPA numbers for the Malibu Hybrid show a 3 MPG improvement for the combined mileage over a standard Malibu (w/6-speed) and within 15% of the combined mileage of the similar sized TCH and NAH.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

The Vue is supposed to make the jump to full hybrid status, and then go on to plug-in hybrid as well.

The Saturn Vue has been the testbed for GM on hybrids.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Not really. They just don't make very many of them, for a variety of reasons. For the first part of 2008, hybrid battery supply was diverted to existing 2007 models for replacement due to a recall. Otherwise, it's a very limited-production model. You won't find GM's BAS hybrids languishing at the dealer--they just don't get very many to sell.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Well think there produced a limited numbers for this specific model. I think its kinda trial model for all consumer.
______________________________________
acura legend accessories

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

GM hybrid..........that's a strange concept. They are just a bit late into the hybrid arena. Now that they are facing almost certain bankruptcy/reorganization, they needed to have the Malibu hybrid several years back. I saw the base price is almost exactly the same as the TCH at approx. $26,000. The full-hybrid mode in the TCH is great and i have been averaging between 38-43mpg year-round. I am pleased that i did go with the only real leader in hybrid technology and reliablity......Toyota.:D I owned only one GM product......a Chevy, hands down the worst truck/car i have ever owned. They still have light years to go!

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

I just traded in a 1999 Silverado (that I put over 300,000km on it) for a Chevy Tahoe Hybrid. I had no issues at all with the Silverado in the nearly 10 years I owned it. It was a great truck. I am now really enjoying the Tahoe Hybrid. I am all for competition and free trade but I don't like it when American vehicles get slammed. I am a Canadian and I will always buy North American over Japanese since I would rather see my neighbour with a job than driver a foreign car. But I respect your right to slam your own country and its domestic vehicles in favour of the Japanese.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that American vehicles are actually made in the US. The vast majority of the parts are actually made elsewhere. And, about half the assembly plants are elsewhere. They have been moving jobs overseas for more than 20 years.

It's really sad. We tax domestic manufacturing at about 40% of gross. We have "safety" and "environmental" regulations that mostly make sense. China and Korea do not tax manufacturing for export, and they have essentially no safety or environmental regulation. This needs to change.

We could level the tax part of the playing field by two little changes in our income tax code:
1. Money received from foreign nationals (not US taxpayers) should be deductible business expenses (i.e., not taxable as income). This would eliminate the tax on exports.
2. Money paid to foreign nationals (not US taxpayers) should NOT be deductible as business expense. This would impose the same tax rate on foreign manufacturing and services as we impose on domestic manufacturing and services for our domestic market.

More will be needed to level the safety and environmental parts of the playing field. I don't know a good way to do that.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

I see this was started back in August, but is the Honda civic a real hybrid , or what about the Insight ? can either of them run on just electric ? NO , I work as a bus mechanic , and the other day I was ,had a class on a diesel hybrid school bus , you have to plug it in at night , and the diesel engine never shuts off. not even at stops. It does recharge the hybrid battery while braking , the electric motor just assists the diesel from a full stop . Hybrids are a combination of internal combustion and electric motors. While Toyota and Ford s are able to run on electric up to 10 to 15 does that make them any more of a hybrid ? more expense , yes better mpgs yes , but still a combination of electric and gas ... a hybrid. Kipper

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

The engine crank shaft and the motor on the Honda IMA system are connected together.
The crank shaft has to spin when the vehicle moves even in a fuel-cut mode.
http://world.honda.com/automobile-technology/IMA/ima03/
Honda claims "The motor alone powers the vehicle" on "Low-speed cruising".
But, the motor has to drive the vehicle and the crank shaft.
I think it's very wasteful solution.

Ken@Japan

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

It may be a wasteful solution to have to turn the ICE when only running on electric power, but it is a rather simple solution. It may be less efficient in stop and go "city" driving than a Toyota/Ford type system, but is more efficient on a highway where the electric motor/planetary gear set transmission is less efficient than a conventional transmission. Lower cost and works great, versus higher cost and works even better. Both IMA and HSD systems are great. I love my Camry Hybrid, but appreciate how wonderful the much simpler Honda IMA system works.

-- Alan

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Then, why does the EPA highway mileage by the less efficient Toyota Prius record as same as the more efficient Honda Civic Hybrid, 45 mpg?
And, why is the lower cost compact Honda Civic Hybrid's MSRP ($23,650) is higher than the higher cost midsize Toyota Prius's MSRP ($22,000)?

Ken@Japan

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

I was researching a story on hypermilers, and came across this fine website. Let me add these points to the "foreign car" discussion:

• American automakers employ about 267,000 people, 29% of whom work in the USA. Foreign automakers employ about 103,000 people, with about 9% working here in the U.S.
• American automakers run 39 plants here, foreign automakers operate 11 plants in the U.S.
• In model year 2007, 78% of American automakers cars was domestic content.
• In model year 2007, 31% of foreign automakers cars was domestic (U.S.) content.

Specifically, GM had 80% domestic content in 2007, while Toyota had 42%. VW had 4% domestic content, and Honda had 52%. Hyundai had 10%, Ford had 81%. Chrysler had 74%

We all have a choice. Support our American economy, or not. In today's wacky, topsy-turvy world, I encourage all to support American industry.

I happen to run two successful companies, both in the automotive related field. We will not sell anything that is made by a foreign owned company, or is not made in the USA, of at least 75% domestic content.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Toyota's NA built percentage was 53.7% in 2007.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases...T2008010326480

Ken@Japan

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

According to Toyota's website, 55.1 of their vehicles sold here were assembled in their three U.S. plants. (53.7% in MY 2006) However, the content of those vehicles was only 42% sourced in the U.S. The issue remains that the manufacturing profits go to Japan. Foreign automakers have less than 1/3 the engineering & design jobs here than domestic automakers have. It would be good if Toyota; et al, moved all their white collar jobs to the U.S., and moved their headquarters here so they could be listed on our American stock exchanges.

Don't mean to hijack this excellent thread, but I believe American engineers and workers can indeed produce a product equal or superior to any foreign manufacturer. I live here, make my money here, and want my kids to have productive careers here in America.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Yes, the Civic Hybrid is a bit more expensive than the Prius, but that could be for any number of non-hybrid related reasons, including standard features or company profits. My point was that the Prius gets much better city milage than the Civic (48 Prius/40 Civic), or compared to its own highway milage, where the Civic gets better highway (45 for both Prius and Civic), more like a non-hybrid would expect (higher highway than city).

The HSD (Prius) system does better city than highway, and the IMA (Civic) is better suited for highway than city. Part of the Prius better city milage is due to it being almost 500 pounds lighter, and part may be due to power differences. The HSD is better able to manage the ICE/electric motor(s) mix, and better integration of the battery, but at a cost of added system complexity (more complexity in the electronics) and somewhat less efficiency in the "transmission" system. The HSD transmission is basically current flowing from one motor to the other, and is less than 90 efficient, where a conventional mechanical transmission is closer to 95% efficient. At constant highway speeds, the IMA allows the engine to drive the wheels more directly and efficiently (the motor is virtually bypassed), where the HSD is still using the motors, and losing a bit of efficiency doing so, but not gaining much ICE efficiency as is done in the city cycle.

Bottom line (for me) regarding the IMA is that it is a pretty simple modification to a conventional drivetrain which works very effectively for small cars (but less effectively scaleable to larger vehicles like the HSD is).

-- Alan

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Your opinion does not reflect real numbers.
Prius(2932lbs) is heavier than Civic Hybrid(2877lbs).
Again, why costly Prius is less expensive than simple Civic Hybrid?
What kind of costly features are added to Civic Hybrid?
Prius EPA mileage is 48/45 and Civic Hybrid mileage is 40/45.
I only see heavier Prius is more efficent than Civic Hybrid.
Prius(58.7/67.9/175.0) is almost same size as Civic Hybrid(56.3/69.0/177.3).
Bottom line (for me) regarding the IMA that it is less efficent than the HSD.

Ken@Japan

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Simple - Honda chose to sell the HCH in a single 'pretty much loaded' trim level. Toyota chose to go with a 'menu' approach, with a more modestly equipped 'standard' model, and a more generous menu of 'tart-ups'. A Prius with a load of tart-ups comparable to the HCH is > $25K.

Also, a loaded Prius can be optioned up to beyond $30K, while a 'full-boat' HCH is < $25K (with Nav as only major option. The Prius does offer a number of 'premium' features not available on the HCH; may or may not be relevant. Different marketing strategy - whether it's better for you or not depends on whether you want the tart-ups that the Honda makes you buy as a price of admission.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

I test drove the Aura sedan hybrid. It was pokey, and sucked alot of fuel when pushed to keep up with traffic. I would expect the Chev to exhibit the same.

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. (I lost the thread until Ed_T refreshed it!)

I was incorrect about the Civic being heavier. Not sure what I was looking at between the Honda and Toyota spec sheets. With less than 2% difference (55 lbs), I would call the weights virtually identical.
Frodo and I have both addressed this issue. The differences in base equipment and factory marketing, etc. are all more significant than the difference in cost. It is impossible for us to discern any cost differences due to the different hybrid technologies.
Basically, I agree with you about efficiency. I've already acknowledged that the HSD is fundamentally better suited to city cycles and more scalable to heavier vehicles than the IMA system.
Civic is a bit longer and wider, and, typical of Honda, lower to the ground. More importantly, the Prius has better interior space utilization, which is mostly due to it being a hatchback, but also due to Toyota's excellent optimization of the Prius design as a hybrid system. In spite of Honda's usual outstanding job implementing their minimum exterior/maximum interior philosophy to car design which includes the Civic in general, Toyota has excelled on this with the Prius.
I agree with your bottom line. I also believe the HSD is better scalable to larger vehicles than is the IMA system. However, from an engineering perspective, I see the IMA as simpler (notwithstanding Honda's pricing strategies), and highly effective, as evidenced by comparing the otherwise nearly identical Civic Hybrids to non-hybrid Civics. Where I see the GM BAS system as throwing 2 cents at a problem to get 2 cents (or less) worth of a solution, I see the Honda IMA as an excellent, cost effective solution for small vehicles. Like you, I see the Toyota HSD (and similar Ford system) as a better solution. I also see great value in the IMA system, and would never discourage anyone with a preference for Honda over Toyota or whose non-hybrid needs might better be served by a Civic to purchase a Civic hybrid.

-- Alan

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Just think how much fuel would be saved if all vehicles had an autostop.

And yes, I am commenting on multi posts to get that disgusting spam off the frontpage. Does this site even have mods anymore?

Re: Is this a real hybrid?
 

Mix hybrid, huhh ??